Rolling Large – A Corporate Strategy
Different corps and pilots have varying ideas about when to upgrade to a bigger ship class. Some believe that you need to wait until you can fully T2 fit the ship in question. Others believe that you should upgrade as soon as you possibly can, fittings be damned. And still others fall somewhere between those extremes.
WTE believes in putting our pilots into the biggest ships they can fly, as early as they can fly them. That means cruisers and battlecruisers even for those pilots days or weeks old. Yes, there is a certain amount of risk involved in doing so, but we believe that the benefits outweigh the consequences.
- By flying in bigger ships, you have more DPS. More DPS means the opposing ships die faster. The faster they die, the less damage we receive. The less damage we receive, the less we die.
- By flying in bigger ships, you have more effective hit points (EHP). The more EHP you have, the longer you live. The longer you live, the more damage the enemy takes. The more damage they take, the faster they die. The faster they die, the less damage we receive. The less damage we receive, the less we die.
- By flying in bigger ships, you have more engageable targets. A fleet of 10 frigates (T1) will get killed by almost anything. A fleet of 10 cruisers can engage more than 10 frigates. A fleet of 10 battlecruisers can engage more than 10 cruisers or 10 frigates. A fleet of 10 battleships can engage more than 10 battlecruisers, or 10 cruisers, or 10 frigates.
- By flying in bigger ships, you win the psychological war. An enemy fleet of 10 battlecruisers will scoff at a fleet of 10 frigates. They will laugh at a fleet of 10 cruisers. They will be concerned with a fleet of 10 battlecruisers. They will fear a fleet of 10 battleships.
Let's use some actual examples here:
A few nights ago, OUCH had a gang of 8 T1 frigates roaming around in 0.0. Now, referring back to Assertion #3, we can guess that there would not be many, if any, targets in 0.0 that they could successfully engage. Indeed, they likely would only be able to engage haulers, or a solo T1 cruiser or two. Is this because OUCH pilots are poor at PvP? Heavens no. As will be shown shortly, pilot skill is only one part of the equation. No, they had few targets they could successfully engage because their ship selection was limited to T1 frigs. The end result when they encountered a smaller gang of larger ships? All 8 OUCH frigates were destroyed, 6 OUCH pilots woke up in new clones, and every hostile ship remained intact.
Now, let us put a typical WTE gang of the same size into that same engagement. Eight of our pilots, six flying battlecruisers, and two in cruisers (as is typical). The WTE gang would have steamrolled that particular Outbreak fleet. Why? Because WTE pilots are better at PvP than OUCH pilots? Heavens no. Indeed, a sizable portion of the WTE Security Division is made up of former OUCH members at the same general experience and SP level as those still in their old corp.
No, the difference is the ship selection. Battlecruisers (and cruisers) hit harder and last longer than T1 frigs. By hitting harder, we could actually deal enough damage fast enough to kill the enemy. By lasting longer (more EHP), we are better able to sustain that high level of DPS. Thus we avoid a massacre that teaches very little, and instead win a victory that teaches much.
The biggest concern when you're wanting "young" and "old" alike to roll large is ISK for the newer pilots. After all, a well fit frigate might cost around 4M ISK, and a cruiser might cost 12-15M ISK. A well fit battlecruiser can run the gamut of 45-75M ISK, quite a leap up from the previous two ship classes.
This is where White Talon's ship provisioning program comes in. We give you fully fitted ships for free, eliminating the ISK concern for organized PvP or PvE ops. Essentially, all WTE pilots can "roll large" at the corporation's expense. You lose a corporate ship while on an organized op? No biggie, they're all corporately insured, which lets us turn right around and purchase another. By provisioning these ships, you ensure that we are always able to field the maximum amount of firepower, with the maximum amount of sustainability, that our pilots possibly can. Sure we could eke out some more DPS and EHP by provisioning battleships. And you know what? That is in the plans. But that's for the future while we continue to operate successfully in the present.
Question for the People:
Where do you and your corp fall in the spectrum of when a pilot should upgrade his/her ship to the next size larger? Right away? When they can properly fit one? Is it an ISK concern? A SP concern?
February 10th, 2010 - 22:28
First Flying Wing and Primary. Alliance seem to have the philosophy of “you fly what you want to.” By and large, most folks fly around in BCs and BBs – though you’ll see some folks breaking out the interdictors, heavy dictors, and logistics ships for larger ops. (Always, of course, following the “fly what you can afford to lose” mentality.) Sure, for some ops – especially joint ops with our local allies – we may follow stricter standards on what to bring – most ops are remote rep BBs or capships – but for internal ops and roams, most of the time, we can bring what we want.
February 11th, 2010 - 02:15
I’m sorry to tell you but, quite simply, you are wrong. A well composed T1 frigate fleet should be able to engage a T1 cruiser/battlecruiser fleet consisting of pilots of approximately the same age. Heck, Tuskers frigate gangs of 10-12 have taken down battleship gangs of 6 or 7 ships.
Being able to use a small ship effectively is far better than being able to use a large ship ineffectively. By provisioning your members you are removing the financial barrier, which is good, but my not letting/making them spend time in small ships they are missing some vital Eve learning experiences. There are more roles in a fleet than just turning up in the biggest ship you have, with the biggest guns you can fit.
February 11th, 2010 - 04:54
I certainly respect your opinion, Wensley. There is indeed some value in letting people learn in smaller ships. But what I find confusing is when you state, “they are missing some vital Eve learning experiences.” Like what? What type of EVE learning experiences, other than losing a ship over, and over, and over again are they missing out on?
Learning to tackle? Doesn’t take a T1 frig for that. Learning to get underneath a larger ship’s guns? Doesn’t take a T1 frig for that. Learning to scout? Doesn’t take a T1 frig for that. Learning how to dictate range on a slower, more powerful ship? Doesn’t take a T1 frig for that.
You don’t need a T1 frig for any of those things. I’m sure I’m missing some obvious examples, though, so what learning experiences do you feel they are missing out on by not flying a T1 ship?
February 11th, 2010 - 07:44
T2 tank (if shield tanked, if armour buffer, a 1600 plate will suffice) and T2 weapon upgrades… Thats all you really need. For a sniper fleet of BCs T2 guns are optimal, as their range is increased, but they are not wholly neccessary.
The way we set up our fleet engagements, is that the lower SP pilots fly frigs as tacklers, as getting primaried is unlikely, we never take anything bigger than BCs out, unless everyone is in BSs (as then the BS gets primaried). We also enjoy a bit of ’shock and awe’ – 10 identical battlecruisers (often ‘canes) all in a skirmish fit (essentially, our personal fits, not fleet fits) has been successful against a RR group of 5 BS.
However, I have to say, that if 10 frigs catch a (1) mission running BS (ie, set for long range) and are quick about primarying the drones, then those 10 frigs will destroy the bs. Ive seen it happen. Same goes for cruisers, although you might lose a couple. A well set up frig gang (with interceptors and SBs) can take on a lot of things, but you are right, they can’t engage another same sized blob of better ships.
Just my 2c
February 11th, 2010 - 11:52
Actually if you look at today’s ouch killboard they had a nice number of kills with a primarily frig gang. Heavy on the ewar (at least 2 griffins) which is good and a few cheap drone boats (2 arbis) but the rest was mostly frigates. T1 fit. Dunno who was FC’ing but it looks like they had good coordination, taking out 2 0utbreak guys and an Atlas megathron and two more.
February 11th, 2010 - 12:37
They certainly did. Note, though, that all of those kills were against solo ships except one instance. I’m not stating that a mass of T1 frigs can’t kill things that are solo or duo by any means. Their board wouldn’t look the same if the hostiles had been similarly organized.
February 12th, 2010 - 05:30
So basically it comes down to: it doesn’t matter if we are having a good time in OUCH, or if we are having a succesful roam in OUCH. Cal will write a post anyway, stating that if that same roam was with WTE it would have been better, more fun, strategically superior, it would have big ships, there would be cooler people, the graphics would probably be improved, and did i mention the bigger ships?
Let it go, Cal. Take a deep breath and let it go. It’s a slightly embarrassing read…
February 12th, 2010 - 10:36
I discourage new players from training for cruisers or bigger until they have several critical support skills to IV. Since those support skills will apply to all ships, the time spent training them is extremely productive. After that, T2 weapons.
After a pilot can T2-fit a T1 frigate, I suggest either training for medium T2 weapons or getting on a specialized path for a T2 Frig of choice or Stealth Bomber (due to the kind of stuff we tend to do). We always look at where our fleets have strategic gaps and suggest paths to fill those gaps–although what they train is always a pilot’s own choice.
Training to sit in ever bigger ships without first training the necessary support skills to fit an appropriate tank and/or gank is a sure way to a lossmail.
By the way, I disagree with your assertions in #3, above. Small fleets in small ships with skillful pilots are deadly. There’s no reason for newer pilots to rush into bigger ships under the mistaken notion that it’s going to be the win button against fleets of smaller ships. Tactics, pilot skill and fleet fit/configuration have more to do with the outcome of an engagement than ship size. I distinctly remember being in a fleet last year with 6-8 AFs that tackled three battleships and a late-arriving battlecruiser at a belt. Superb FC’ing and synergy among our pilots meant we maximized our advantages and absolutely melted them.
February 12th, 2010 - 18:54
All I know is the frigate fleets in OUCH were getting slaughtered. The move to a larger fleet means that I get to spend more time engaging than running. That’s a good thing.
February 13th, 2010 - 08:11
The frig fleets in OUCH got slaughtered because your guys didnt use scouts properly. I seem to remember two frig fleets with maybe two cruisers in support just jumping into Doril and getting murdered by our skirmish BCs. All of which could have been avoided with some decent scouting.
February 13th, 2010 - 21:19
Hey there. Thanks for the comment on my blog post, even though I argued the opposite of you. To respond to your question, my corp and alliance (Minmatar Ship Construction Services and Ushra’Khan, respectively) actually do not have a strict policy or a really clear-cut guide for when to switch to bigger ships. What I was told when I joined (a few months ago) is to train up to Battlecruiser just in order to be able to rat properly, then to train my support skills and find a ship size I prefer and use it.
The reason the advice is so vague is because the best fleets are fleets with balanced numbers of small and large ships. While I can deal 300 dps with alpha in the thousands with my Hurricane, the roam last night would have failed to catch and destroy a Drake and a Huginn if another pilot and me did not fly a Dramiel and a Rifter, respectively. And, while my DPS may be low (71) and I got killed, it’s way more demoralizing for the enemy to lose ships worth tens of millions to one worth barely a million, than for them to escape from an engagement against bigger ships.
It is from this standpoint of teamwork tactics that I write new pilots should stick to frigates at first. They’re just so useful! Tacklers, scouts, anti-drone support, bait, and just general nuisances. And I have a 95% pilot efficiency, even if I die so much!
February 13th, 2010 - 22:57
Frigs fleet in Ouch were also near completely T1 fit with (often) minimal skills behind them. Add in what Crefakis said (which was often true) and yeah, they got slaughtered.
The way I see it, an AF is a cruiser-like tank and a cruiser-like DPS (in most cases) with frig mobility. A T1 rifter with skills at III and meta 0 mods just doesn’t compare.
February 21st, 2010 - 23:29
As someone who almost exclusively uses T2 frigates, I’d have to say the premise behind using battlecruisers is far more sound than only using frigates. I love the speed and agility of my interceptors, but frigates have to be specialized to be effective. Yes a swarm may be able to take out a BS or even a couple battleships, but it comes at the cost of having to pick fights very carefully due to the specialized nature of frigates.
Having the versatility of a mostly BC fleet allows for more opportunities to engage and win. Add in the possibility of RR, and you’re near unstoppable.
April 27th, 2010 - 11:31
Nemesis Nation is in the Wensley camp, flying a smaller ship with full skills is much more valuable to our corp than flying a fail Mega for instance. For newer players the idea of getting in and out of fights effectively is rough with a slow moving ship. We like our pilots to get used to pvp in smaller ships, this compensates for their lack of experience, and allows them to develop the mechanical tools needed for small gang warfare.
That being said, as most of us know the shiny new BS skill is hard to pass up for new players, but after that first BS loss, and a empty wallet; I’m sure more noobies will head for cheaper ships.